Curse

JDRyder · Jul 19, 2008, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

CoP to fast casting would be a buff enough.

i got a good lol from that, not to apply condescension or to disagree

Kemal X · Jul 19, 2008, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Primary attribute reflects use of a class. Eles get loads of energy when investing in ES, due they have many spells that require much energy. Strenght boosts melee attack power for warriors. Divine Favor heals more, because that's what monks do, heal. Primary helps the cause.
Where I'm trying to get here is that even though Fast Casting doesn't seem that great at first glance, it helps with stuff mesmers do. Like Interrupt, lay hexes like Ineptitude or Clumsiness etc etc.
Also, I pretty much can't stand any other caster professions due their "humongous" casting times after playing a mesmer. So, FC does matter.

Ichigo724 · Jul 19, 2008, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Fast casting fails pve, mesmers generally (aside from CoP spam) fail pve as well.

Attribute: (using FC to buff the secondary class)
There is no point whatsoever in running FC over another primary attribute, unless you purposefully want to gimp yourself. Many other primary attributes offer passive energy management, allowing you to use your skills for whatever you want.

Class: (using mainly mesmer skills)
Inferior to other midlines. Killing stuff outdoes disabling it by a mile. Illusion? Degen (which is most of the attribute) is slooooooow, instantly raping stuff is better. As far as illu anti-melee go, it's vastly inferior to stuff like curses. Inspiration? If mesmers didn't have such a crappy primary attribute, they wouldn't need to spec in this anyway. Either way, it offers energy management, which isn't contributing to the team, it's contributing to whatever other attribute you spec in mainly. And last but probably best: domination. Some armor-ignoring direct damage (e-surge and the likes) doing somewhat decent in high level play. A big part of the attribute is e-denial (blargh) and shutdown. Just rape stuff, works better than shutting it down. And if you really, really have a problem with casters, just run a bha/splinter/volley ranger.

JDRyder · Jul 19, 2008, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Read from page 6-8 we have alrdy been over this and i dont feel like reposting it all.

Ichigo724 · Jul 19, 2008, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

Read from page 6-8 we have alrdy been over this and i dont feel like reposting it all.

I read the entire thread before posting, thanks for the suggestion though.

kostolomac · Jul 20, 2008, 12:10 AM // 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

Just rape stuff, works better than shutting it down.

[Assassin's Promise] helps mesmers a lot for that

Ichigo724 · Jul 20, 2008, 12:14 AM // 00:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

[Assassin's Promise] helps mesmers a lot for that

Unless it's a CoP-based build, other classes do it better.

-Lotus- · Jul 20, 2008, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Retard who is just plain ignorant ^^^^

After all the facts and uses have been shown on the mesmer's possibilities.. Retarded and just plain ignorant is truly all that can describe you

We have a CoP spam, interupt, SoI Ele, farming, IW, and a variety of other builds.
High damaging ARMOR IGNORING AoE spells. Whats more to ask for? On top of that, the mesmer is the class most favored by Izzy and gets all the overpowered buffs. Then you can annoy your enemy with shutdown in Pvp.
I, for one, say the mesmer is the most overpowered.

you obviously havent gotten to the part of the game where you get a secondary profession yet. come back when you finish Pre

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

comparing classes is dumb and mesmers do not need any fixing. Till you give a reason for why i dont see where your coming from. Saying they Don't do damage is not a good reason.

1. comparing things is nessicary in a gme that is supposed to be balanced
2. weve been over this, fast casting is next to useless compared to other primary attributes, espically soul reaping (refer to this post: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=128)
3.damage is nessicary in PvE

Magikarp · Jul 20, 2008, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

1. comparing things is nessicary in a gme that is supposed to be balanced
2. weve been over this, fast casting is next to useless compared to other primary attributes, espically soul reaping (refer to this post: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=128)
3.damage is nessicary in PvE

then..

1. fair enough
2. why doesnt everyone play a N/x then?
3. nothing is necessary in pve.

mesmers are simply a different playstyle. trying to explain how casting skills faster is good, is like trying to explain why breathing is good.

@ Ichigo or w/e, about AP+mes primary, you could easily spam empathy, clumsiness, wandering, mistrust, CoP, CoF, Power Spike, Shatter Hex, Eburn, and any other one of the many great armor ignoring damage skills mesmers have, at 14-15 attribute with nearly no downtime, for pretty much the most powerful direct active magic damage in the game.

if you want to see power, CoPway the Deep or Urgoz, then we can talk. (almost all mesmers...)

Ichigo724 · Jul 20, 2008, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

@ Ichigo or w/e, about AP+mes primary, you could easily spam empathy, clumsiness, wandering, mistrust, CoP, CoF, Power Spike, Shatter Hex, Eburn, and any other one of the many great armor ignoring damage skills mesmers have, at 14-15 attribute with nearly no downtime, for pretty much the most powerful direct active magic damage in the game.

if you want to see power, CoPway the Deep or Urgoz, then we can talk. (almost all mesmers...)

Note how I already mentioned CoP being good. Also, the skills you listed are in dom and illu, of which you'd have to choose one (AP doesn't cover spamming. you need insp as well). You'd need whatever attribute you're using (illu/dom), fc and insp.

-Lotus- · Jul 20, 2008, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

2. why doesnt everyone play a N/x then?

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

(refer to this post: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=128)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

3. nothing is necessary in pve.

I suppose ill stop bringing along multiple team members then, its its not nessicary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

mesmers are simply a different playstyle. trying to explain how casting skills faster is good, is like trying to explain why breathing is good.

yes, its a playstyle that i dont understand. thats obviously the problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

@ Ichigo or w/e, about AP+mes primary, you could easily spam empathy, clumsiness, wandering, mistrust, CoP, CoF, Power Spike, Shatter Hex, Eburn, and any other one of the many great armor ignoring damage skills mesmers have, at 14-15 attribute with nearly no downtime, for pretty much the most powerful direct active magic damage in the game.

I forgot none of those can be used on a mesmer seconday. what was i thinking.
/sarcasm

....were you kidding?

JDRyder · Jul 20, 2008, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

you obviously havent gotten to the part of the game where you get a secondary profession yet. come back when you finish Pre

1. comparing things is nessicary in a gme that is supposed to be balanced
2. weve been over this, fast casting is next to useless compared to other primary attributes, espically soul reaping (refer to this post: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=128)
3.damage is nessicary in PvE

Comparing mesmer to ele or necro is wrong, you may as well compare ele to a monk and then say monk is useless cause it does not do damage. As said Magikarp its a different playstyle.

Also Ive said this many many times, Mesmers dont need any more energy management. They already dont run out of energy as they are and giving mesmer more will mean nothing, It will be like adding 0 damage to ele spells in a way.

Yes but the question is how much, As ive said in pasted post, if more damage means your team kills something 2 secs faster who cares, your will also take more damage than the team with more defenses, If you kill thing 2 secs slower who cares, your team will also take 1/3 of the damage the team with more damage takes. This means you can get by with just 1 monk in some areas and can add in more damage or support damage.

Magikarp · Jul 20, 2008, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

I suppose ill stop bringing along multiple team members then, its its not nessicary.

yes, its a playstyle that i dont understand. thats obviously the problem.

I forgot none of those can be used on a mesmer seconday. what was i thinking.
/sarcasm

....were you kidding?

can you use them at 12-15 spec without gimping your primary? oh yeah, thats right, no. and what i meant (reading comprehension ftw?) was that there (at the moment) is so much of a cushion for pve, even "HM", that you could play 8 W/Mo H/Hands warriors and clear most places np.

btw, your bolded statement was correct the first time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

Note how I already mentioned CoP being good. Also, the skills you listed are in dom and illu, of which you'd have to choose one (AP doesn't cover spamming. you need insp as well). You'd need whatever attribute you're using (illu/dom), fc and insp.

AP
CoP
Empathy
Shatter Hex
Powerspike
CoF
Utility
Utility/Res

and thats just a 3 spec using AP as you suggested. Personally, i wouldnt waste my elite, nor spec an attrib that only benefited me one skill, and would rather use a mesmer skill instead.

Ichigo724 · Jul 20, 2008, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

Also Ive said this many many times, Mesmers dont need any more energy management. They already dont run out of energy as they are and giving mesmer more will mean nothing, It will be like adding 0 damage to ele spells in a way.

They don't run out of energy how exactly? By speccing into insp and adding 2 skills from it? Vastly inferior to just speccing into SR or whatever and have energy management without having to take extra skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

Yes but the question is how much, As ive said in pasted post, if more damage means your team kills something 2 secs faster who cares, your will also take more damage than the team with more defenses, If you kill thing 2 secs slower who cares, your team will also take 1/3 of the damage the team with more damage takes. This means you can get by with just 1 monk in some areas and can add in more damage or support damage.

Killing faster = taking less damage as well, as fights last less long. In the end it's the same thing, but killing faster does the same thing faster, thus it's better.

-Lotus- · Jul 20, 2008, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

can you use them at 12-15 spec without gimping your primary? oh yeah, thats right, no. and what i meant (reading comprehension ftw?) was that there (at the moment) is so much of a cushion for pve, even "HM", that you could play 8 W/Mo H/Hands warriors and clear most places np.

of course there is a cushion! this is how mesmers have stayed in their current form for so long. PvE is so easy that anything really works so its slightly difficult to come up with an area where even a terrible build(or profession) cant work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

Comparing mesmer to ele or necro is wrong, you may as well compare ele to a monk and then say monk is useless cause it does not do damage. As said Magikarp its a different playstyle.

no. when comparing professions you need to take a look at heir roles. something like: monks are great healers, but cant match the damage potential of eles. and eles are a great damage profession, but cant heal a team quite as well as a monk. Mesmers cant damage as well as eles or heal as well as monks, they can however shutdown enemies, which unfortunatly isnt any use in PvE.

Quote:

Also Ive said this many many times, Mesmers dont need any more energy management. They already dont run out of energy as they are and giving mesmer more will mean nothing, It will be like adding 0 damage to ele spells in a way.

why dont you want energy managment? we have been over the (lack of) usefulness of fast casting. if you are under the impression that mesmer skills need to be use in a shutdown build why dont you justplay that way as a N/Me for some unconditional energy managment?

Quote:

Yes but the question is how much, As ive said in pasted post, if more damage means your team kills something 2 secs faster who cares, your will also take more damage than the team with more defenses, If you kill thing 2 secs slower who cares, your team will also take 1/3 of the damage the team with more damage takes. This means you can get by with just 1 monk in some areas and can add in more damage or support damage.

so mesmers are protecting the team now? if the enemies are dying 2 seconds faster your team is taking 2 seconds less of damage. besides, characters should be taking hybrid type build with forms of protection anyways.

Magikarp · Jul 20, 2008, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

They don't run out of energy how exactly? By speccing into insp and adding 2 skills from it? Vastly inferior to just speccing into SR or whatever and have energy management without having to take extra skills.

Killing faster = taking less damage as well, as fights last less long. In the end it's the same thing, but killing faster does the same thing faster, thus it's better.

the point isn't "lets make a team of mesmers and see if they kill faster than 8 SF eles", its that active countering> active defense (not to be confused with passive defense like SY, enfeebling, wards, aegis, DA, etc). you only need ONE mesmer in an ENTIRE team to prove effective, whereas ONE ele (unless warding) usually would never be enough, and would need at least two to really prove any team worth (in damage or utility).

sure, compare FC to SR and you could say anything you want, but you're also comparing apples to kryptonite seeing as SR and necros in general in pve are wildly broken.

the point of a mesmer is to tip the scales of what could be hard or dangerous in to a mere puppy of what it used to be, and when paired with a team (which you seem to leave out..) dealing the primary damage, the mesmer can sit back, and end 90% of the problematic scenarios all by his/herself.

SY! TNTF! spam
damage/utility
damage/utility
damage/support > game. (its called balance)
damage/support
utility/support (mesmer or rit here)
healer
healer

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

of course there is a cushion! this is how mesmers have stayed in their current form for so long. PvE is so easy that anything really works so its slightly difficult to come up with an area where even a terrible build(or profession) cant work.

no. when comparing professions you need to take a look at heir roles. something like: monks are great healers, but cant match the damage potential of eles. and eles are a great damage profession, but cant heal a team quite as well as a monk. Mesmers cant damage as well as eles or heal as well as monks, they can however shutdown enemies, which unfortunatly isnt any use in PvE.

i stopped reading this junk here. if you think thats all a mesmer can do, i suggest learning how to play one.

JDRyder · Jul 20, 2008, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

They don't run out of energy how exactly? By speccing into insp and adding 2 skills from it? Vastly inferior to just speccing into SR or whatever and have energy management without having to take extra skills.

im able to manage with just [drain enchantment] with my power block builds. Also its something you'd want in HM and some places in NM, removing enchants can boost DPS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

Killing faster = taking less damage as less, as fights last less long. In the end it's the same thing, but killing faster does the same thing faster, thus it's better.

yep but they are still going to do damage to you cause your not going to be able to kill them before they use any spells etc, and only using 4 damage deals is not a big deference to 6 damage deals. If you double the damage it doubles the speed but after its been doubled a few times its not a big increase "20secs becomes 10secs becomes 5secs becomes 2.5secs etc" And tbh unless it was a 30sec increase id still use the defense, at that point its better to just use your teams slots on something else, Somethings like MMs can off defense and damage "only used MM cause so many people like them im not a fan of them tbh" at the same time, Just cause they are a defense char does not mean they are not doing damage. For mesmer im a fan of
[build=OQZEAYsTiIdDwNsCgAKAkBQEgMA] only reason i added GoLE is for Blinding flash "a ele skill that even necros will not be able to spam every 4-8 secs" but ive been able to deal with out GoLE and have added a 2nd interrupt, or you can remove blinding flash add in signet of clumsiness or something, and add in a BHA ranger to the team and you got yourself a team with good synergy, and it can add in a fun game play aspect "give me the favor over here says the BHA ranger XD"

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

no. when comparing professions you need to take a look at heir roles. something like: monks are great healers, but cant match the damage potential of eles. and eles are a great damage profession, but cant heal a team quite as well as a monk. Mesmers cant damage as well as eles or heal as well as monks, they can however shutdown enemies, which unfortunatly isnt any use in PvE.

its more useful than killing every thing 2 secs faster

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

why dont you want energy managment? we have been over the (lack of) usefulness of fast casting. if you are under the impression that mesmer skills need to be use in a shutdown build why dont you justplay that way as a N/Me for some unconditional energy managment?

cause its not needed and i can get fast casting with mesmer, if you never drop passed 50% energy what do you think is more useful, fast casting or soul reaping?

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

so mesmers are protecting the team now? if the enemies are dying 2 seconds faster your team is taking 2 seconds less of damage. besides, characters should be taking hybrid type build with forms of protection anyways.

2 sec damage is nothing at most about 200 "but as things die the damage gets less and less so its going to be less than 200 most likely"

interrupting means you monks dont need to use the 10 energy for the prot or heal etc and if its a AoE spell can be more than 20 energy your monks will not have to use.

Ichigo724 · Jul 20, 2008, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

the point isn't "lets make a team of mesmers and see if they kill faster than 8 SF eles", its that active countering> active defense (not to be confused with passive defense like SY, enfeebling, wards, aegis, DA, etc). you only need ONE mesmer in an ENTIRE team to prove effective, whereas ONE ele (unless warding) usually would never be enough, and would need at least two to really prove any team worth (in damage or utility).

One ele is half as useful as 2 eles, gasp?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

sure, compare FC to SR and you could say anything you want, but you're also comparing apples to kryptonite seeing as SR and necros in general in pve are wildly broken.

It being broken changes nothing. Most other classes all have their e-management linked to their primary class in some way or another (excluding warrior and elementalists, but I'd like to consider those exceptions if you don't mind).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

the point of a mesmer is to tip the scales of what could be hard or dangerous in to a mere puppy of what it used to be, and when paired with a team (which you seem to leave out..) dealing the primary damage, the mesmer can sit back, and end 90% of the problematic scenarios all by his/herself.

So can enfeebling blood + a splinter/volley/dshot ranger, which have decent damage and primary-linked e-management to boot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

im able to manage with just [drain enchantment] with my power block builds. Also its something you'd want in HM and some places in NM, removing enchants can boost DPS.

Toss rip on something if you really, really want enchantment removal. Or just tell your frontline to stop sucking and learn to recognize enchantment animations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

yep but they are still going to do damage to you cause your not going to be able to kill them before they use any spells etc, and only using 4 damage deals is not a big deference to 6 damage deals. If you double the damage it doubles the speed but after its been doubled a few times its not a big increase "20secs becomes 10secs becomes 5secs becomes 2.5secs etc" And tbh unless it was a 30sec increase id still use the defense, at that point its better to just use your teams slots on something else, Somethings like MMs can off defense and damage "only used MM cause so many people like them im not a fan of them tbh" at the same time, Just cause they are a defense char does not mean they are not doing damage.

Comparing 5 seconds to 2.5 seconds is still twice as fast. It doesn't matter whether the difference is minimal in actual time, it adds up when you kill a few hundred enemies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

For mesmer im a fan of
[build=OQZEAYsTiIdDwNsCgAKAkBQEgMA] only reason i added GoLE is for Blinding flash "a ele skill that even necros will not be able to spam every 4-8 secs" but ive been able to deal with out GoLE and have added a 2nd interrupt, or you can remove blinding flash add in signet of clumsiness or something, and add in a BHA ranger to the team and you got yourself a team with good synergy, and it can add in a fun game play aspect "give me the favor over here says the BHA ranger XD"

Enfeebling blood practically neutralizes melee and doesn't require an elite to be AoE. Fevered dreams requires 0 spec to be effective, not worth taking a mesmer for. Your bar has 3 energy management skills.

edit: forgot to address one of the quotes

JDRyder · Jul 20, 2008, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

Toss rip on something if you really, really want enchantment removal. Or just tell your frontline to stop sucking and learn to recognize enchantment animations.

you take that but its not needed and if your me/mo or something other than necro you cant.

[Prot spirit] things can hurt caster damage,

Why not take it any way? it allows you to kill the things you want faster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

Comparing 5 seconds to 2.5 seconds is still twice as fast. It doesn't matter whether the difference is minimal in actual time, it adds up when you kill a few hundred enemies.

its not that much to me, 2 secs faster who cares.

It does add up but in 2 ways. time and deaths, you cant tell me that your guild never dies, and if they dont its cause Tommy and Divine are monking for them

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

Enfeebling blood practically neutralizes melee and doesn't require an elite to be AoE. Fevered dreams requires 0 spec to be effective, not worth taking a mesmer for. Your bar has 3 energy management skills.

Yep and i agree, but it cant daze everything. Weakness only reduces damage by 66%, Blind does it by 90%, dont get me wrong i like them both, and depending what my team is running will dictate what i think is better to run

nope i have 1 energy management skills others just happen to give me energy but they are meant for interrupts and removal of enchants.

rebirthofdragon · Jul 20, 2008, 03:59 AM // 03:59

I'm genuinely curious about people saying that they never run out of energy. How do you do it? This is my build in PvE:
[build prof=Me/E Fast=12+1 Illusion=12+1+3][Ineptitude][arcane echo][epidemic][wandering eye][clumsiness][signet of clumsiness][glyph of lesser energy][sunspear rebirth signet][/build]
For any other profession, getting two spells for 5 energy would be a steal, but I find that I am still running out of energy about halfway through battle. Early on I can render attackers almost completely useless, but after about 30 seconds, I am out of energy and kind of useless myself. If the enemies are dead, I'm fine, but otherwise I'm wanding. All that in spite of running all radiant insignias and a +20 staff. What is your secret?

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

nope i have 1 energy management skills others just happen to give me energy but they are meant for interrupts and removal of enchants.

That doesn't make sense. If Power Drain and Drain Enchantment are only meant to interrupt or strip enchantments, respectively, then why do you have so many points invested in inspiration rather than in making the rest of your skills more effective?